2.8.24 Ethics Workshop

 Hello! Here is the workshop regarding the Ethics Ordinance that took place earlier this month, I'm still working on the regular board meeting but will have that up soon. My daughter came w me to this one, ik the democratic process is a bit too boring and lame for her now but I think it's ok to expose her to these kinds of things in small helpings now, plant those seeds you know? Just so she's aware of the process. I didn't know anything about govt, especially locally, growing up, and I think I gave up a lot of power in doing so? I want to make sure she is a little more cognizant of that power than I was.


https://www.accessvision.tv/telvue/853850

blog: https://battlefleek.blogspot.com/2024/02/2824-ethics-workshop.html

 Trustee Titus will be late to this meeting

[1:19] Trustee Jim Mead wants a public comment section,
Trustee James Junhke: "I don't think that's appropriate... we have a motion and passage with this board that says 'we cannot amend the agenda after the meeting starts... now you violated it last month and you're intending to violate it again, this month. That is not correct, idc what the books says Jim. We have a motion, an order and an acceptance by this board that we are not going to do that."
Mead: "I'm asking for an amendment, or whatever you want to call it, but it's something that I want to add to the agenda and I'm coming right back to the book that--"
Supervisor Deb Belles: "why didn't you say something when I was making the agenda? I could have added it to the agenda, I could have added it."

[3:00] Township Attorney Robert Thall comments on the issue, saying they can just move the public comment portion, not necessarily needing to add anything, which is what Mead originally intended.

Public Comment:
[4:40] Joe Harris - Supports the ethics discussion "I just want to make sure that it's done correctly." Talks about how McComb county has their board set up with a separate ethics investigation board. "...we want to make sure that anyone who brings ethical complaints have an opportunity to tell their side of the story. The opportunity to bring witnesses... to have a hearing before an ethics board. I would hope that the board considers to have a board of ethics comprised of citizens of Emmett Township. I honestly feel that is the best way to go... it keeps all of you out of the picture, and keeps the equality of power across the board." 

[8:40] Clerk Tracy Myers: What I feel is kinda frustrating is that me you and tyler cannot work as a team, that I pulled an ethics resolution off of the MTA website. A sample resolution that could have saved this township a lot of money. It's very laymans terms, it's simple... There's stuff in here, I talked to Tyler about it, that we need explained. It's in attorney language, it's lawyer language that normal people do not understand... so I'm just frustrated because we've sat down and were supposed to be working on the employee handbook... I think this ethics could have been a policy instead of an ordinance. Who just gives you the direct authority to go to the attorney to make up an ordinance without asking the board what we want to do, first."

Juhnke: "I thought we all agreed that we needed an ethics policy, and that's why our attorney--"
Myers: "A policy, not an ordinance, Mr. Juhnke."
Juhnke: "what difference does it make?"
Belles: "An ordinance handles elected officials, too."
Myers: "I think what else is frustrating... I've looked at other policies and I've called other townships and we're the only one that has the fourth one... sanctions? And civil infractions. That really doesn't seem ethical to me, to do a fine for somebody that is doing something unethical... if you're doing something unethical, why are you still working here?" 

[10:50] Attorney Robert Thall passes out papers "I understand what you're saying... I go around the state speaking on ethics, so nothing that you're saying is surprising to me."

Belles asks Clerk Myers "what is it exactly that... you have problems with?"

[13:40]Thall: "the whole point of having an ethics ordinance is to make sure everybody understands what they should do, what they can do, what they can't do and then having procedures when somebody violates it. I mean that's what fundamentally we have... so there's a number of different ways to do it, but an ethics ordinance in terms of public officials is not effective as a policy. There's no policy that can do anything to a board member."
Junhke: "not only that... it wouldn't be effective if you had to take it to court."
Thall: "So if a board member violated any of these policies, there's nothing they could do... in this ordinance form it gives you the authority to go further than that. that you can actually fine them."
 Myers: "I think that's silly."
Thall: "Well... that's the only punishment that you can have against elected officials because they're elected. I mean, if somebody were to violate it right now there's nothing that you could do about it other than say 'hey that was wrong.'"
Myers: "recall somebody"
Belles: "well right now you can't recall somebody..." Myers starts reading sections off before Belles interrupts "yes, Tracy, we were gonna go right from one paragraph to the next to explain them instead of picking... going through it.""you also have in here... complaints MAY be filed with the MI dept of LARA? violations of this... are subject to appropriate disc. action up to termination by the appointing authority... so how are we putting an ordinance in that's going to supersede state statute?"
Junhke: "It doesn't, it includes it." 

[16:45] Juhnke: "so if it's not an ordinance, it doesn't have any teeth."
Myers: "not that it doesn't have any teeth it just doesn't have the monetary."
Belles: "this holds everybody accountable, not just employees but it holds everybody-- the board too, in place. I mean... look at all the past boards... it probably could have took care of a lot of things, you guys could have probably used this, you know? With other board members that you guys have had problems with, you know?"

[17:30] Juhnke:"well I hate to say it but w my 50yrs experience in the field of law, I've read it and it's very clear to me. I don't think that it is so stilted that it is unclear to a person of average intelligence, which is what I think I am. You can understand it, we have our own rules and we're given the option of if you don't like our rules, use the state rules. That's what this whole thing is about."

[18:00] Myers: "k well I have a problem with the filing and disposition of complaints, that it be filed w the supervisor. Why does one person have that much power?... why can't it all just go to the attorney?" but Juhnke says the ordinance states that it would go to either the supervisor or attorney.
Thall : "The supervisor is really just processing it to the proper parties... the supervisor isn't doing anything other than sending it on and asking for an answer or response, then it goes to a complaint review committee, which is appointed by the township board. So then the board would agree on who... reviews the complaint and decides whether there's anything to it. If not it ends, if there is then it moves forward to the township board."

Juhnke asks if it would be a permanent committee or if it's randomized for each specific item, in which Attorney responds "You can do it however you want. You can have a rotating committee, you could... have a permanent committee. You can always change whose on the committee."

[22:15]Supervisor Belles: "Ordinances, when there's complaints, anytime they come to me anyways, and I delegate them to where they gotta go, it's not giving me the power to decide on that anyways. With everyday common stuff--"
Thall: "going back to the board, you do have a charter township, and in a charter township the supervisor IS the head of the personnel... unless you have a superintendent who would have those powers. So, you know, to say... the supervisor shouldn't be in charge, or shouldn't have anything to do with personnel is really in opposition of the statute... now does it give the right to hire and fire? That has to come to the board, but in terms of personnel mgmt, that is the statutory beauty of the supervisor, so you know you gotta be careful when you say 'oh we don't want you to do that,' because it's really a statutory duty."

[23:15] Clerk Myers: "let me ask a question about the anti nepotism, I did the hiring process and my cousin was literally the best candidate..."
Belles: "You can have anybody for your deputy, but it states that it's not recommended in the red book because of family vacations you take off and then you're gone for the whole week... you did that the first year I came on." 

[24:50] Belles: "should we start at the beginning and go through each paragraph to make sure we understand it?"
Myers wants it to cover everything "I don't want to have to come back..."

[26:00] Trustee Stephen Titus arrives

[26:50] Trustee Mead has a question about who the ordinance covers: "who can make a complaint? Can a citizen make a complaint... or is this just board members making complaints?" Thall says it would be complaints from staff, from the township, the board or employees.

[28:15] Attorney Thall: "there's many options that you could do... this is an ethics ordinance. You could have something lesser, that's an ethics policy... as I explained before, it has no, it really has nothing you can do to board members who violate it. You could censure them, but this actually as an ordinance means you could do an ordinance violation if they violate the terms. Otherwise, as a policy there's really nothing you can do as a board about board members who violate it. ... an ordinance is going to be the strongest level of protecting and assuring the township is operating in an ethical manner... there's a lot of different examples I handed out, different provisions you could add in, maybe even more provisions that you could add it... this is based pretty much on statutory law. There are things you could put in about transparency and other things if you wanted... Tracy you've handed that out." Tracy talks about the packet she's handed out to everybody which is from MTA, a sample resolution of ethics.

[29:55] Thall: "this ordinance as it is, I'm very comfortable with this ordinance. I think it's a good ordinance, I think it serves you... there's no issues that... you have to understand your public employees are at will. You can fire at will employees for no reason, or any reason... it's up to the board to do that." 

Juhnke: "it's too bad we're having to do this."

Thall: "I don't think there's anything wrong with having that... I suggest everybody have at least the policy at a minimum... you should have. Until you read this you might not know what you can and can't do, but it sets those out for people to understand..."

Trustee Mead reads an article in the Jan 2021 focus magazine, a Q&A section that Thall was featured in and remarks that he suggests "an ethics policy at a minimum." 

[32:15] Juhnke: "We're doing something here, I think, that's modeled after an existing and working system. It may not be clear to some people, but there are people who can answer questions if there is a question, and that's what we're here for." Clerk Myers interrupts asking "Whose system are we using?"

myers "I can tell you I don't like the complaint form in this ordinance..." 

Thall: "How would you prefer the complaint procedure if you used the attorneys office rather than the supervisor?" 

[33:30] Titus: "obviously a supervisor is going to deal w a majority of the complaints... what was it that you didn't like about it?" 

Myers: "I don't like that they have to be filed with the supervisor, and I don't really care for where it says the complain review committee consists of two township board trustees... what if the complaint is about one of those trustees?" Treasurer Sobesky remarks that they talked about having different committee members.

[34:00] Jim Mead gets out of his seat to walk over to Joe Harris in the audience

Thall: "so you could set up an ethics board which would be a separate body, like you say in that ordinance from mccomb township, where they did set up a separate body that could be citizen. There's a lot of attendants who have a citizen review board... the only problem with that is if you're assigning to a citizen review board maybe employee matters. Maybe with board members yes, employees you have a little more trouble because... you could get into huge liability issues depending on how laymen citizens review board handles employee complaints... versus if it comes to the board with legal advice and a closed session..." Goes on to discuss different ways of conducting a committee.

Titus asks Myers if it makes her more comfortable that every complaint goes to the attorney rather than the supervisor. 

[39:20] Thall: "It's very important to make sure everybody understands what the ethical rules are... some things you have to factor, say if you go to a seminar... you don't want that to be a violation... lets say you go to the MTA conference and all of the vendors are there and you get little pens, just little things to promote... those things you don't want to start at." in reference to a $50 limit on "what is a gift" 

 [44:35] Thall: "...It's not necessarily aimed at anybody on your current board, but I've had plenty of boards where people get elected and then fail to do their duties, or will refuse to do their duties.... something like this is extremely powerful to have in an ordinance... when you go after. There's also a provision for wrongful complaint. No person shall file a complaint alleging a violation if they know that it's... intentionally false, then you're gonna be held, there's due process for that." 

[45:30] Juhnke: "It's very well done"
Myers: "I didn't say it wasn't"
Belles: "It's not a target at anybody on this board, it's going forward--" Joe Harris interrupts from the crowd, "first warning."

[46:15] Juhnke wants it increased from 5 days to 10? Says 5 isn't long enough. 

[48:30] Thall: "so then it goes to the complaint review committee, they then review the complaint and respond within 15 days of receipt..." some discussion about changing the amount of days to suite the board... One of the things is you don't want this thing to drag on... in two months that somebody made an ethics complaint before they even get to the board, you know that's really too long. You wanting something... faster."

[51:00] 10 days after complaint filed, 20 days after that.

[52:10] 6 month statute of limitations, you have to file within 6mo of the incident otherwise it is dismissed.

[52:50]: Myers "I feel like the sanctions just seem silly."

Supervisor: "how else would you take care of something if somebody violated an ethics thing on the board? Just nothing?" More discussion on provisions, next month's meeting will have something more defined. 

[58:10] Titus: "is there anything rn that you see on there that..."
I just feel like if we're doing an ethics, this is from the MTA it goes over the stuff that's in ours...

[59:35] public comment

Joe Harris - glad about the decision to hire an outside ethics review board, and that it would go to the attorney and not Supervisor Belles. 

[1:01:45] Renee - suggests doing 14 days for each instead of 10 and 20

[1:02:45] Tim White - realtor for 14 years, realtors code of ethics could be a great resource to look into. 

[1:05:45] cindy kemp - marijuana admin for township. "I do agree about due process, I need some clarity on where I need to go if I have a complaint against a board member. I'm at-will employee, Deb's sister I just want to know who, at this point, I come to if I'm having some problems."

Deb: "half sister. I didn't hire her, the board did it."

[1:07:00] board comments

[1:07:15] Belles: "what gives me the right when somebody asks me to put something in the agenda and work on it, I do. I didn't start this."